Percy Jackson & The Olympians – The Sea Of Unexpected Character Revelations (And One Impressed Fan)

house of hadesLast winter, I wrote a post describing my disenchantment with the popular middle-grade author Rick Riordan. I criticized him for being too attached to one idea – namely, that ancient gods and goddesses are real – but now I’m rather pleased with him again. For a very different reason. Spoilers for The House of Hades ahead!

I may actually start reading Rick Riordan’s books again.

I eagerly read each installment in his Percy Jackson and the Olympians series as soon as they were published. The Kane Chronicles weren’t quite as good but I still got through most of them. Yet somewhere along the line, my interest in his books evaporated like the mist in Iris messages. I certainly don’t consider Riordan to be the worst author (that honor goes to Christopher Paolini) or even a bad author. He is actually quite the creative guy, but his obsession with mythological stories has gone on long enough.

Until recently, he wasn’t proving to be anything other than average.

The House of Hades, book four in his Heroes of Olympus series, came out (no pun intended) yesterday but spoilers were leaked about a week previously. I was cautiously optimistic because some jerks will make fake spoilers – even Riordan posted something on his blog about not believing everything you read. But I shouldn’t have worried.

Rick Riordan included an LGBTQ+ character in The House of Hades. He did. He actually did. He had Nico di Angelo admit to having a crush on Percy Jackson. You can read the page here. Nico. Nico, one of the few characters I enjoyed. (I’ve never thought Riordan’s characters were his strong suit. I read his books for the humor and retellings.) This is not something I ever expected Riordan to do. I am very happy with him right now for the following four reasons.

The House of Hades is a mainstream book.

I am filled with astonished glee. This is Rick Riordan we’re talking about. Rick Riordan wrote this. Rick freaking Riordan. RICK “MY BOOKS ARE PUBLISHED BY DISNEY AND THEY’VE BEEN TURNED INTO MOVIES AND I’VE MADE MILLIONS OFF THEM” RIORDAN. Regardless what you think of his writing, you can’t deny that he’s very popular with middle-grade and YA readers. LGBTQ+ kids are going to read The House of Hades and, hopefully, see that they’re not the only ones.

There aren’t many mainstream works of fiction that have canon LGBTQ+ characters. For the record, I’m familiar with two. Harry Potter doesn’t count because Dumbledore’s orientation isn’t in the books or films proper. There’s A Song of Ice and Fire /Game of Thrones (which I wouldn’t recommend to little kids as it’s one of the darkest things I’ve ever read) but you have to look really hard for the subtext, which stinks. There’s also Doctor Who, which wins for sheer number of LGBTQ+ characters but tends to use them for laughs only. So it’s nice that Riordan is being upfront, positive, and serious.

LGBTQ+ characters have long been in books aimed at children and teens, books that are often written by – gasp! – LGBTQ+ authors. As those books are usually centered on LGBTQ+ issues and not, well, monster-fighting demigods, they don’t tend to get picked up by the major publishers. I am a little irritated that it takes a big-name author to get people’s attention, but hey. If Riordan can make a kid feel better, more power to him.

LGBTQ+ characters are canon to Greek and Roman mythology.

“But why do we even need gay characters in fantasy? They’re just stories! They’re not reaaaaal!” whine the homophobes. Well, maybe because LGBTQ+ people are real? I find it disturbing how so many people are unconcerned about the representation of this very real group, caring more about dragons, elves, and whatnot even though those things are, you know, not real.

And with Greco-Roman mythology, LGBTQ+ representation is beside the point. (Don’t you just love it when people bring down their own arguments by not knowing what they’re talking about?) If you don’t believe me, take a look at any collection of myths that wasn’t edited – just translated straight from Greek or Latin. It’ll be full of such characters. They include Orpheus, Laius, Narcissus, Pan, Ganymede, Achilles, Patroclus, Pelops, Cyparissus, Hyacinth, Daphnis, Apollo, Poseidon, and Zeus. Don’t even get me started on Hercules and his innumerable boyfriends.

So yes, including Nico makes perfect sense. Actually, what doesn’t make sense is why there aren’t more LGBTQ+ characters in this series that has, what, one hundred characters? (I apologize if I’m way off. I’m a bit out of the loop in all things Riordan; people keep talking about Hazel and Frank and I don’t even know who they are.) But I’m not too fussed. Riordan saw his chance and he took it.

The House of Hades is a children’s book.

Gather round and I’ll tell you a story! Once upon a time, there was a little girl who couldn’t find any characters who were really, truly like her. She looked at a lot of fiction and when all she found were stories about girls crushing on boys, she worried that maybe there was something wrong with her. Maybe people like her weren’t good enough to be in stories, as characters who have adventures and go on quests and are admired. It took her a long, long time to stop feeling bad about herself.

That is why we need LGBTQ+ representation in books – not just YA, but middle-grade and children’s books as well. We need these books earlier rather than later because there’s no set age one has to be before one realizes that one is different.

Predictably, there’s been a fuss about the whole thing. I looked at The House of Hades on Goodreads this morning and quickly wished I hadn’t because many users were writing in their reviews how Nico doesn’t know what he’s talking about because he’s only fourteen. If that’s true, why don’t people object when kindergarten boys and girls pretend to marry each other on the playground? Funny how you’re apparently never old enough to know your sexuality unless it’s straight.

Here’s another story: Once upon a time there was a teenage girl whose lack of LGBTQ+ books caused her to read far much into many friendships between characters of the same gender, hoping to find someone like her. She read The Titan’s Curse, the third Percy Jackson book, and thought Artemis and Zoe seemed suspiciously close. (She hopes she wasn’t the only one to do this. Anyone else?) Although Artemis makes a big deal about “staying a maiden forever”, she immediately follows this up with how she’s sworn off guys. Just guys.

That teenage girl thought neither it nor anything like it would ever happen. Not with Rick Riordan.

The other characters react well to Nico’s coming out. 

Cupid even offers him advice. Jason’s fine with it and better yet, doesn’t pull any of that “but it’s probably not a good idea to tell people” nonsense. Riordan seems to understand that being gay (or whatever Nico is – I love that it’s ambiguous) is simultaneously a big deal and a small thing.

It irks me when people say something thing, “I’m cool with your sexuality, but I don’t see why you have to tell everyone”. Hello, you contradicted what you just said by implying that there’s something wrong with me that I should not tell others about. Riordan doesn’t do this. He doesn’t undermine his newly created potential. He understands that it’s just who some people are, but also that it can affect their life in huge ways.

As you can see, I’m rather proud of Rick Riordan. He’s not perfect and LGBTQ+ representation in books still has a long way to go, but this is progress. I still stand by my earlier remark that he really needs to move past the retelling-mythologies idea, but hope that he doesn’t move past any further discussion of Nico. After all, he’s had twelve books with mythology as a major topic and only one with LGBTQ+ as a minor topic. I think I’m going to give the Heroes of Olympus series another go.

And now, I’m off to resume my bewildered happiness: Rick Riordan. Dang. Definitely not who I expected. Thanks, dude. You’ve moved up a few notches in the “Authors I Really Admire And Respect” list (which I made up just now).

What are your thoughts?

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About nevillegirl

Elizabeth, University of Iowa class of 2019. Double majoring in English & Creative Writing and Journalism. Twenty-year-old daydreamer, introvert, voracious reader, and aspiring writer. Passionate about feminism and lesbian positivity.
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99 Responses to Percy Jackson & The Olympians – The Sea Of Unexpected Character Revelations (And One Impressed Fan)

  1. Artgirl says:

    I’m afraid there’s a catch to it somehow, like Nico got hit with Cupid’s arrow, or something. I’ll be interested to read it to see how it turns out.
    One of my new favorite things to do when I’m bored is look into the subtext of GoT/ACoK (since those are the only two I’ve read so far) and try to determine if the characters are LGBTQA+. (It’s like how my theater teacher was talking about how LGBTQA+ playwrights from the early 1900s would include sort of a code in their plays that would show that some of the characters were gay, but it was deeply subtexted and generally only other gay people recognized the code.)
    One of the things I’m worried about in my upcoming NaNovel is that my LGBTQA+ relationships are represented realistically and relatably. If you’d like you could read it when it’s finished and help with that.

    • nevillegirl says:

      I think it’s supposed to be genuine but yeah, we might not have all the context. There was a photo of the opposite page floating around the Internet but now I can’t find it…
      Oh, I do that too. 🙂 I mean, Ned & Robert? Totally more obvious than Renly & Loras. At least to my mind.
      Sure, I’ll do my best.

  2. magicfishy says:

    *chanting* Nico, Nico, Nico…

    Wow, I hope that that spoiler isn’t just some sort of cop-out or dream sequence or something. It definitely didn’t seem that way to me, but. When’s the book come out again?

    And yes, I always thought that there must be some same-sex relationships among the huntresses. It just makes sense.

    So yes, good. Now just get some more characters of varying sexualities and I shall be an even happier fish.

    • nevillegirl says:

      It was out on the 8th, but good luck getting it. It’s probably quite a bit of money since the paperback hasn’t come out and I bet the wait list at libraries is huge.

      Yay, I’m glad someone else thought so. It’s just my luck that the only time I actually saw potential for ANY kind of romantic relationship, it A) wasn’t canon and B) could never happen because Untimely Character Death. I don’t really get how people think there are lots of cute couples in PJO, etc. I mean, Annabeth/Percy – they’re AWESOME friends. I just don’t see the romantic part. Riordan isn’t showing me that, or how they have chemistry. He’s just telling me that they’re together.

    • Mary says:

      The majority of the Hunters are in their young teens (the average age of a Hunter was twelve), so eww. Way too young to date.

    • nevillegirl says:

      @Mary: The Hunters are in their young teens PHYSICALLY, but after joining Artemis they don’t age. Time still passes for them, so one who looks about fourteen like Zoe (I think she was fourteen? She was older than most of the others.) can actually be much, much older.

      And as for the ones who actually are closer to their early teens, well… I agree, twelve is a bit young to date. I know straight kids that started that young, though, and no one was complaining that much. Why shouldn’t it be the same for queer kids, if they want?

  3. Miriam Joy says:

    I haven’t read the series at all, but I saw stuff about this on Tumblr. I think it’s a good thing, but the fact that it’s such a big deal highlights a wider problem.
    Incidentally, if we’re talking about mainstream books with queer characters, The Mortal Instruments has a whole heap of them. And has a spin off series based entirely on one of them and his various escapades. And deals incredibly sensitively with the struggles teenagers may face even while it’s not a plot point (there’s a line about a “thousand paper cuts every day” which nearly made me cry). Say what you want about those books, but they’re a huge shout-out for the existence of LGBTQ folks, and they’re hella popular too. 🙂
    Tithe by Holly Black also has a canonically gay character, and is just a great book anyway. Also, no spoilers, but … THE DREAM THIEVES BY MAGGIE STIEFVATER CAN I JUST
    (I also recently read a book called Angelmaker that had wonderful vintage lesbian superspies.)

    • nevillegirl says:

      Haven’t read Heroes of Olympus, or any of Riordan’s books?

      The Mortal Instruments. Got it. Wasn’t there a movie of that recently? I might be confusing with Mortal Engines…
      *must remember Tithe and Angelmaker*
      OH MY GOLLUM WHAT THE DREAM THIEVES DO YOU MEAN IT’S JUST AWESOME IN GENERAL OR THAT IT HAS LGBTQ+ CHARACTERS BECAUSE I HAVE HOPED FOR ADAM/GANSEY SO MUCH. Ronan/Gansey would be lovely too, though. And Calla/what’s-her-face… Calla/Maura.
      ERGH. I probably won’t be able to get to the library for a while yet. 😦

      (Also, I’m nearly finished with Doctor Who. 😦 Too soon, too soon. Might’ve helped if I hadn’t watched through series six in a little over a month. And Clara is definitely one of the cutest companions.)

      • Miriam Joy says:

        Yeah, City of Bones is the first book in TMI, came out in August. 🙂 I personally adore the books as pure unadulterated escapism, but a lot of people are snobby about them. Meh.
        I MEAN SUBTLE BUT UNDENIABLE EVIDENCE THAT ONE OF THE BOYS IS GAY which Maggie has confirmed. I’m not telling you who because that’d spoil it, but it’s beautiful.

    • nevillegirl says:

      OK, thanks! 😀
      Escapism is good. I guess I’m usually more interested in WHAT the author is telling me in a story, and not so much HOW. I don’t get too snobby about perfect prose if I can still imagine a cool world for a few hours.
      Eep. *vows not to Google it and spoil it for herself* That’s awesome. That is so, so awesome. It’s always nice to know one hasn’t been ignored by an author.

    • nevillegirl says:

      NO NEVILLEGIRL JUST WAIT TO READ IT IN THE FREAKING BOOK *is stern with self*
      I am really, really hoping it’s Adam/Gansey. Adam is sweet but Gansey is… well, Gansey. He can be so clueless at times.

      • Miriam Joy says:

        Wait and see. In many ways, the exact focus of this character’s attentions is left ambiguous. Personally, I believe he loves **** but also desires ********* and struggles to come to terms with that, as he’s ashamed of feeling that way about that person. But, you can read that as a manipulative power balance as well, and all sorts of other things.

    • nevillegirl says:

      I’m going to imagine it’s Adam loving Blue and Gansey… no, wait, that’s not gay, that’s bi.
      *sighs* I look forward to reading it, and you’ve increased my anticipation by about 24601%.

      • Miriam Joy says:

        Ehehe! Well, the number of asterisks was roughly equivalent to the number of letters in their names, don’t know if that makes it better or worse? Anyway there’s some beautiful scenes. Watch out for a dream about a tattoo because that was the first time I properly clicked although it was hinted earlier.

    • nevillegirl says:

      I thought it could be that too, but I wasn’t sure. Let’s see. X loves Blue? but also Gansey? Ronan Lynch? definitely not Noah since he’s kind of DEAD.
      Aaaaand tattoo. Ronan.

      • Miriam Joy says:

        You have some names in the right places. But also two names in the wrong places. In fact, two names that actually don’t really factor into the equation at all. The longer name is a character outside the immediate group, so you won’t guess it.

  4. I thought the revelation of Nico’s orientation was a huge jump in the success of his character arc. He was just a mystical little skinny pale guy who dressed in black and talked to ghosts before, but now, he’s human.

  5. The Rant Continues says:

    There are so many things to love about Nico – he’s got a troubled past that just makes you want to hug him, a father you want to punch in the face for him, amazingly handsome, survives pretty much everything, never makes a big deal out of being just as cool as Percy (I guess now I know why, though) but never as famous…his sword is also pretty frickin sweet and he wears cool clothes. And then Rick Riordan totally changed his character in the House of Hades into this scrawny, messed up delusional child who people tend to avoid. What?
    I am personally not opposed to LGBT+, and I’m certainly sick of all this crap people are putting up over how now all books have at least one LGBT character in them to make money (come on, it’s not any different than having a character of a different race or gender. They just aren’t the same. No biggie, guys)
    But the way Uncle Rick portrayed Nico throughout the entire book just kind off pissed me off. He has changed that poor boy completely from this independent little BAMF into this helpless, creepy kid that different characters continually state they don’t want to be near/ alone with. Personally, the only thing that miffs me about the whole thing is that all the girls who write Nico/Percy Fanfiction are going to get SO MUCH MORE EXPLICT AND ANNOYING.
    I’m ranting, whoops…..sorry. Just…did anyone else see how (and this does not include his sexuality because I love that he’s into Percy – it’s so hot) Rick sort of changed him for the worse end?

    • nevillegirl says:

      Nico is one of the few male characters in Riordan’s books whom I actually like a lot. Grover is pretty good, and Percy is OK – Nico is probably top. I’m glad it was him, and not some extremely minor character.
      But I haven’t read HoH yet and it makes me sad that apparently Nico’s changed in it.

      Pffft. It has nothing to do with money – or at least not directly. I want LGBTQ+ characters in books for representation – I just want to see characters like myself. I don’t want to be ignored. It has nothing to do with authors following the “trend of the moment” and trying to make lots of money – being gay or whatever isn’t a trend, it’s been around forever. In spite of what some want to think. 🙂

      Uncle Rick? He’s your uncle?

      • AJ says:

        Speaking, 3/4 of the way through HOH, and having read all the other books, I do not believe Nico changed. I believe Riordan put a focus spotlight on him feeling outcast, and not-quite-part-of-any-group. Putting yourself in Nico’s shoes, he’s on a ship with NONE of his friends, and people he only met months ago. I’d automatically feel outcast. Riordan did not changed Nico’s character. Only highlighted the more socially outcast aspect of it. It provided the perfect set-up for the later reveal of his crush on Percy (aka his not-so-straightness). As a bisexual (semi-closeted) teenager, Nico being not straight, totally made my day. Plus, I’ve had this pin-pointed since Son of Neptune. (I read the earlier ones before figure out myself) Anyone who says the crush was a sudden change in Nico’s character might not have paid the closest attention to how he looked at Percy.

        • Rights4People says:

          I loved the Nico reveal! I loved Nico already but now I see him as more than just a sob story with a cool sword. My BFF is gay I like it cuz we can talk about guys but I also get the guy’s perspective I was the first person in my grade that he came out to

    • nevillegirl says:

      Hmmm. It’s interesting to see all the different perspectives – I haven’t really read any of the HOO series (although I did get the first three at the library today, and now I’m on the waiting list for HoH!). So I wouldn’t know that much about Nico’s personality later on.

      I’m glad it made your day. 😀 I didn’t see it coming because, like I said, I haven’t read the series. But I have seen a lot of comments, usually by LGBTQ+ fans, saying that it wasn’t that hard to see pre-HoH. The amount of heteronormativity in world is astounding (and unfortunate). Some people aren’t outright homophobic but just can’t believe that THERE MIGHT ACTUALLY BE QUEER CHARACTERS OMG. They see everyone as straight.
      Aaaaaand that’s why I have an issue with people saying, “But [insert book/movie/TV show] DOES have LGBTQ+ characters. It was implied!” Because there are people who will insist that it can’t be true, that there needs to be more “proof”, and that some people read between the lines too much.
      But that’s an entirely different kettle of fish.

      Thanks for reading and commenting!

    • nevillegirl says:

      @Rights4People: Thanks for reading and commenting! And I agree, he went from being a scrawny little kid with anger issues to quite a bit more.

  6. Faith says:

    I work at an elementary school and many of the third and fourth graders read Riordan’s books — I personally would prefer that they not date at all (one way or another) for several years. I understand your point, but my problem with introducing children to the LGBT spectrum an early age is that it introduces them to the complexity of the dating world. In my experience, exposure to romance and dating causes people to mature quite rapidly, and this additive will only further maturation. Once you’ve been in one relationship, it becomes much easier to fall into another one, leaving no time in between for you to grow individually, independent of an ‘other half.’ Love and commitment are important, but should only be sought after once a person has had time to develop who they are and what they believe.

    That being said, I adore Nico and feel sorry that he felt further ostracized because of his feelings. Poor kid has dealt with more heartache and pain than anyone should ever have to.

    • nevillegirl says:

      I so, so, so agree with you about how dating early isn’t a great idea. It’s a complicated thing, and people can make stupid mistakes in relationships – stupid mistakes that could be hard for a young teenager to handle. I mean, if you’re thirteen and you’re dating someone who says you’re their world but they eventually break up with you, that’s probably going to make it harder to trust people.
      So later is probably better. *high-five*

      But this part about how introducing kids to LGBTQ+ will make them date earlier cracks me up. What did Nico say about dating? He just said he was in love with Percy. That’s all.
      And as for the romance part – I don’t see what keeping kids from LGBTQ+ would do. If you don’t want kids exposed to romance, you have to keep them from the straight people. Are you going to ban them from seeing their parents be affectionate?

  7. Bria says:

    Have you ever heard of the “Circle of Magic” children’s series by Tamora Pierce. They have a lesbian character in them. It takes 9 books but she was only 10 at the start so it makes sense. The way she learns about her sexuality (one of the best love scenes I’ve ever read) in “The Will of the Empress” is just great.

    • nevillegirl says:

      I have heard of them, yes. 🙂 I read the first one and wasn’t sufficiently impressed to continue, but that was a few years ago. Maybe I’ll give the series another try.

  8. SD says:

    Disclaimer 1: I love PJatO and HoO and Nico.

    Disclaimer 2: I am bisexual.

    Okay, this just makes me really really really happy. I love Riordan’s books, and I doubt I would have stopped reading them even if this HADN’T happened, but now I know that I am a forever loyal fan 😀

    It’s always sorta been that LGBTQ+ people are invisible in literature, especially fantasy (which is pretty much the only stuff I read… XD ). But I feel like putting a gay character in a mainstream series would increase invisibility EXPONENTIALLY, especially in younger kids. And this is awesome on so many levels.

    But honestly I would love it if Nico wasn’t gay… that he was bi instead… cause you know… bi invisibility and all… but that’s just me. **super sorry if this just insulted you**

    • nevillegirl says:

      I love fantasy too, and get irritated that so little of it features LGBTQ+ themes/characters.

      I don’t know that he IS gay. I specifically avoided referring to him as gay, bi, or anything else because it hasn’t been revealed. We know he likes Percy, but nothing else has been said.

      So no, that didn’t offend me at all. 🙂 Bi visibility is a great thing. I hate it when people assume, so making him bi would actually be a great thing. You can’t assume someone’s gay just because they have a crush on someone of the same gender.
      Basically, I don’t like assumptions. I’ve had to deal with enough people assuming I was straight, y’know…

      • Sonia says:

        Yeah. It’s just me being a bit selfish here, but Nico is one of my favorite characters, and him also being bi would be amazing for the closeted bisexual fangirl a.k.a. me.

        I mean, thing is, with us bi folks, we always have to go the extra step, with coming out and even figuring out what you are… >.< When a label is hated on so much, you don't really want to accept it for yourself…
        And when I tell someone, the conversation goes something like this:
        "Wait, you're gay, right?"
        "No, I'm not."
        "But you aren't straight"
        "No."
        "Then what ARE you?!"
        "Bisexual."
        (I'm talking really fast on this point) "I can fall hopelessly in love with guys AND girls."
        "Oh."
        *now the conversation continues like nothing happened, even though I'm getting this weird feeling in my stomach…*

        Okay, sorry about that, but this is kinda important to me in case you couldn't tell… XD

        • Rights4People says:

          Jeez. Sorry to hear that. One of my mom’s friends is bi, one of my teachers is gay, and I have both a gay friend and a lez friend and I am mostly straight so yeah…

    • nevillegirl says:

      Nonono, don’t feel selfish or weird for bringing it up! 😀
      It’s an unfortunate thing that when there is finally some kind of LGBTQ+ representation, it’s usually for the L or the G. BTQ+ doesn’t really come into it. I wish they did.

    • nevillegirl says:

      @Rights4People: It’s cool that you support “the rainbow”, have LGBTQ+ friends, and all, but I would be a bit more careful about throwing around the word “lez”. Regardless what you mean by it, it tends to be taken offensively…

  9. Supernatural also has a few out-of-the-closet LGBTQ+ characters. There’s Charlie Bradbury (a lesbian), a gay couple named Damien and Barnes, Dean Winchester (who is one of two main characters) is bisexual, Lily (another lesbian), Corbett (gay), and one bisexual background character I can’t remember the name of.

    But the Doctor Who/Torchwood-verse trumps them all. Let’s see, we’ve got:
    Captain Jack Harkness (ehehe, obviously), pansexual.
    Madam Vastra, lesbian.
    Jenny, lesbian.
    Shakespeare, bisexual.
    Alonso, gay or bisexual. (at least I think so)

    ~and now, the Torchwood-verse~
    Captain Jack Harkness, pansexual.
    Ianto Jones, bisexual.
    Toshiko Sato, bisexual.
    Toshiko’s girlfriend Mary, lesbian.
    Captain John Hart, gay.
    The ‘real’ Captain Jack Harkness (Jack’s namesake), gay.
    Brad (one-time character), gay.
    Charlotte Wills, lesbian.
    Angelo Colasanto, gay.

    The writers of Torchwood are awesome. Oh, did you know that Russell T. Davies (one of the aforementioned Torchwood/Who writers) is gay?

    • nevillegirl says:

      What. Dean is definitely bi? All I’ve heard is a lot of speculation that he is, but nothing definitive. Cool!

      Doctor Who is quite awesome when it comes to LGBTQ+ representation. It’s not PERFECT – and actually, one of the gazillion long, analyzing, Doctor-Who-themed posts I plan to write soon will be about how it both succeeds and fails on this count – but it does at least TRY, which is more than most shows/people do.
      There’s also:
      The Fat One and the Thin One (OK, I thought this wasn’t done well, but whatever)
      Clara (ish, she said she fancied a girl and then followed up with “but it was just a phase” – the show doesn’t always get it…)
      River is supposed to be bisexual. There’s not, you know, any actual evidence in-show, though…
      The Doctor doesn’t seem to object to flirting with Jack, Shakespeare, etc…

      There’s lots of little mentions, too. In “The Unicorn and the Wasp” there’s two gay guys. In “The Waters of Mars” one of the guys says something about his brother and his brother’s husband. Yes, those are TINY instances – but they matter. They matter because they show we’re there, that LGBTQ+ characters do exist in that universe. I mean, people who say LGBTQ+ individuals make a big deal out of their sexuality just don’t get it. We have to or we’re ignored.

      JDAKGHDGJHDSGAHGDSDGHSDGG VASTRA AND JENNY ARE ADORABLE I MEAN THERE AREN’T REALLY ANY OTHER COUPLES WHO MAKE ME GO AWWWWWW THAT MUCH. There are other couples I adore, but they win for sheer cuteness.

      Wait, is Toshiko a girl? For some reason I thought Toshiko was a guy.
      And Gwen snogs a girl, doesn’t she? Some alien thing? *knows disjointed bits of plot*

      Yes, I did know Davies is gay. 🙂 How I know, I have no idea. Thank the Internet, I suppose.
      And isn’t Mark Gatiss gay? Someone told me “he’s so gay his name is pronounced gay-tiss”. xD

      • magicfishy says:

        Word of God/Davies is that the whole main Torchwood cast is bi. So, sweet.

        And yes, Tosh is a girl!

      • Jenny says:

        In season…um, something, Dean is “seduced” by and FBI agent who is like a cooler-yet-very-male- version of Sam right? I think that was definitely the moment when i knew that Dean’s bi. I just wish they would come out and say it already -_-

    • nevillegirl says:

      Pffft, I like how Davies is equal to God. And that is splendid. Like I said, DW doesn’t always get it right, but it tries. It makes an effort.

      Don’t know why I thought she was a guy, then. xD I suppose some of my pre-Whovian confusion still lingers – I used to get Rose and Amy confused. ‘Cause, you know, Amy didn’t look like an Amy. Or something.

    • nevillegirl says:

      @Jenny: OK, that sounds like stuff I’ve heard. They’re hinting it strongly but haven’t stated it directly?

      • Yes, that’s exactly it. It’s very blatant though, what with all the Dean-checking-a-random-guy’s-bum-out, Dean-checking-Cas’s-butt-out, and general Dean-perving-on-both-genders.

        I wouldn’t count River as a bi-representative in modern media, though. Like you said, there’s no real evidence of her being bi on the show, so…

        Hmm, yeah, I forgot about that. The Doctor is probably bi, what with the stuff you mentioned added in. Or maybe pansexual? Hetero with male leanings?

        How do you manage to remember all that stuff? I nearly always forget the minor characters. I am impressed.

        JENNY/VASTRA SHIPPER FOR LIFE!

        Actually, ‘Gatiss’ IS pronounced ‘gay-tiss’. And yes, he is gay as gay can be. No one can top John Barrowman’s level of gay, though. No one.

    • nevillegirl says:

      OK, but… *is completely confused* Is this the Wincest I have heard so much (too much!) about? It’s Sam, Dean, and Cas, but I can never remember who’s related to whom.

      Supposedly, snogging Cleopatra and some off-hand comment in “Silence in the Library” are supposed to make everything OK with River. But the Cleopatra thing was with hallucinogenic lipstick – that doesn’t prove anything. She was probably doing that to to get Cleopatra out of the way.
      And I do remember her telling Blustery Dude in SitL to put his helmet back on because he’s the only one she doesn’t fancy. It depends on how you interpret that. I’ve heard my friends make similar comments (not about helmets, but you know what I mean) when it comes to a group of people and the context made it pretty clear that they meant the opposite sex.
      It’s just, these things do need to be said flat-out. LGBTQ+ people are told that we already get implied sexuality/gender stuff and that’s enough. But straight people get so much more. Rrrgh.

      I’ve seen a lot of cool headcanons for the Doctor – bi, pan (prefers girls – you wrote guys, but I think you meant girls?), asexual, Time Lords/Ladies in general are genderfluid, etc.
      I think it would be very interesting if we ever did get a female!Doctor not only because FEMALE DOCTOR AW YEAH TIME LADY but also, it’s pretty clear that the Doctor likes girls better. I would hate it if they reversed it based on gender because that’s not how it works in real life.
      *sighs* …I don’t think we’ll get a female! Doctor any time soon. Darn. Female!Doctor and River? YES.

      TVTropes, my dear. xD Also, some of it I just remembered, ’cause I was fairly impressed that it was included at all. I mean, DW is a kid’s show? Not that I’m saying it shouldn’t be on a kid’s show, but many others think so.

      AAAAAHHHH AAAAAAHHHHH I FINISHED NEW WHO AND VASTRA & JENNY WERE GREAT AWWWWWW. I admit, they’re not the most well-developed characters although they’re much better than the Ponds in far fewer episodes, methinks but god. Children’s science fiction adorable lesbian couple? Yes, thank you. And I read that they’re supposed to be back for series 8, along with Strax! 😀
      Also, I started watching Torchwood! And Classic Who – Third Doctor – but anyway. “Countrycide” was freaking terrifying.

      Indeed. I believe I heard something about him snogging David Tennant at a Comic-Con? *facepalms* OhmyGollumBarrowmanyoudorealizeyou’renotactuallyJackHarknessright?

      • No, actually. OK, quick debriefing on SPN: Dean is Sam’s older brother, even though Sam is way tall. Cas is an angel. Well, former angel currently. The two major ships in the SPN fandom are Destiel and Wincest.
        Destiel – Dean/Cas (I so ship this, btw)
        Wincest – What it sounds like. Dean/Sam.
        There are also a multitude of not-so-popular-but-pretty-well-known ships such as Sabriel (Sam/Gabriel) or Samifer (Sam/Lucifer).

        Exactly, and that’s so annoying. But really, I just want some River femslash. Alex Kingston is hot. And also Freema Agyeman ❤

        I think that Time Lords are pretty genderfluid. It certainly seems that way, doesn't it? I seem to recall the Doctor flirting with a few aliens before, and that scene with 9 and Jack could be counted as flirting, and again, Shakespeare definitely counted as flirting in that one scene.
        Oh yea, definitely. I'm really interested in seeing how the writers would script that. The dynamic'd be completely reversed. I think if Moffat did pull a Rule 63, the Doc’d still be attracted to girls. Just because your physical form changes doesn’t mean that you do, right? Yes, there are a few personality changes (suave, sassy 9 becomes hyperactive technobabbling 10) but nothing so major that their sexuality would be completely changed.
        I shall see if I can find a few fem!Doc/River fics, then.

        On the “LGBT+ relationships shouldn’t be on kids’ shows” ideal, I think that’s really dumb and that Who seems to be stretching the limits. Which is good, obviously. However, I think that if Who were a more widely-known and watched show in the US, there would definitely be quite a few shunners of the show, and some woulddefinitely be caused by the lovely-yet-quite-progressive relationships.

        I KNOW THEY’RE SUCH THE CUTEST THINGS EVER!! THEY EVEN TOP IANTO/JACK
        Yay, Torchwood! It’s like Who but more Jack.

        HERE IS THE CLIP. MY OTP DOESN’T NEED PHOTOSHOP, THERE’S A CLIP OF THEM SNOGGING RIGHT HERE *cackles*

        I don’t believe he does. He’s nearly as into his character as Robert Downey Jr. is with Tony Stark xD (but we love him anyway cause he’s fabulous)

    • nevillegirl says:

      Aaaaah, OK. I knew one of the pairings was gay incest. xD

      Ha ha, YES. I feel weird when I hang out with Whovian IRL friends and the fangirling turns, inevitably, into a discussion of Matt Smith’s cute butt since I’m thinking “Well actually, Alex Kingston is super pretty…” xD So big yes to River femslash, yesyesyes. She was very boring in series six but at least she was pretty. 😛
      OH MY GOLLUM FREEMA AGYEMAN YES
      OK so when any of my Whovian friends who like girls talk about hot DW girls, they’re always like “Aaaaah Billie Piper aaaah Karen Gillan aaaah Jenna Coleman.” And those three are definitely pretty, but Agyeman is gorgeous. *flails at you for agreeing*
      (Wait, are you queer too? I thought you were straight and maybe you are and I’m just being stupid. It’s hard to tell with girls because a girl can say “Oh, she’s pretty” and not be interested in her at all. No one thinks that’s weird.)

      Oh, Jack and Nine were totally flirting. ❤
      I would hope that the Doctor would still be attracted to women but hey, this is Moffat we’re talking about. He’s not always the most logical guy.
      Awesome, thanks. One of my friends sent me two the other day and they were cool… I don’t remember the names, though. It was fem!Twelve.

      It is completely stupid. It’s ridiculous because people would like to believe that there are no non-heterosexual children – hello, I’m here.

      IANTO IS QUITE ADORKABLE THOUGH. My brother and I aren’t watching Torchwood in order so we’ve watched bits of series one, the end of series two :(, and now Children of Earth – in which Ianto is perfectly awwwww with Jack.
      Andandand Peter Capaldi!

      Yep! *has seen that before* *giggles and facepalms*

      Psst, did you get my email?
      *sighs happily* I love long, involved discussions over comments. *high-fives*

      • Every fandom has a gaycest pairing. The Potter fandom has several. *cough*Twincest*cough*

        Yeah, season six wasn’t really pro-River. But at least we had some River, right?
        I’d pick Agyeman over any other fem!companion, but Georgia Moffett would be my second choice.
        I’m bi, actually. (gaydar doesn’t really work over the Net, does it?)

        YES. I ship them, actually. Also Jack/10. And Jack/11. And Jack/River BAMFing friendships.
        Sadly, that’s true. Take nearly the entirety of season 6, for example. When a writer unloads humongous amounts of plot on his audience and then expects them to understand every little detail (and is highly insulted when people don’t get the Demon’s Run episodes) without a hint of confusion, it’s just dumb.
        I love fem!12 fics. Some of them are really OOC, but the good ones are awesome.

        People’s mindset is that every child is born straight. Which is really dumb. But at least we’re working to change that ideal, right?

        THE WELSH TEABOY OF AWESOMENESS *squeals and flails* HE IS SO ADORABLE I AGREE
        I don’t know if you’ve heard, but Moffat (who happened to consult with Davies on this, btw) has got a huge headcanon that explains Capaldi’s presence in Torchwood and that one Pompeii episode with Donna and 10.

        John’s fanboy reaction is so cute.

        Hmm, no. Unless you mean the one sent on Oct. 18, I haven’t seen any recent ones.
        (Hey, did I show you that one DW fanmade trailer before? I can’t remember…[side note: how’s your Who piano playing going?])

    • nevillegirl says:

      I like how we started out fairly on topic and now our conversation has devolved into “fandoms gaaaaaaaaaaaaay”. 😀

      I… Gred and Forge? Really? *honestly had not heard of that before* And then there’s A Song of Ice and Fire where the twincest is actually canon… xD

      Her character development is all weird and backwards. *shrugs* That’s why my favorite River is series 4/7 ‘cause she’s older and has figured out how to be less annoying then. But her hair certainly is at its most fabulous in 5 and 6.
      The one who plays Doctor’s-daughter-Jenny? Hmmm. She’s pretty, I guess, but I prefer other Jenny. *feels weird because what is this new devilry nevillegirl is crushing on a character who is actually canonically a lesbian* She’s prettier than even Martha, methinks. (Although I hate her voice. God, she sounds like a chipmunk.)
      *high-fives* Methinks my gaydar is broken IRL, too. Shame, shame.

      Jack/Nine and Rose/Nine tie for my top DW ships after Jenny/Vastra. They’re perfect. (And I don’t understand this shipping of Rose/Ten. Well, I guess I ship them too, but Nine/Rose had so much more chemistry. I’d rather ship Ten/technobabble.)
      I so so so so want to see Jack and Eleven together. Even if they’re not “together” together, just hanging out and not snogging although that doesn’t seem likely to happen because this is Jack we’re talking about , I want to see how they interact. It makes me sad that Barrowman isn’t going to be in the fiftieth-anniversary episode so (unless by some miracle he’s in the regeneration episode at the very end of Eleven’s run) we’ll never see him with that Doctor.
      I agree about River and Jack meeting up. God, they’d never get anything done – they’d spend the whole time flirting. It’s kind of like if Nine and Donna met: they’d sass each other constantly and never DO anything timey-wimey.

      Exactly. I have this idea for a post about Moffat’s DW writing, actually… ‘cause I have a lot of opinions about it. He’s an OK writer, but loves to pull things out of nowhere and generally confuse his audience. Not. Good. I get that the series six plot is nonlinear, but that isn’t what confused me. What confused me were all the little things that sprung out of nowhere, like Mels being the Ponds’ childhood friend (despite never being mentioned previously) and no one at the Battle of Demon’s Run being familiar (seriously, he couldn’t have had a past companion/alien friend?).
      Basically I just want a female!Doctor so much. Partially for feminism, partially so I can crush on her xD, and partially because why not? I wanna see what a fem!Doctor would be like. Although I don’t want Moffat to write her because I think he’d do a terrible job and then people would say, “See? We tried this fem!Doctor thing and it was entirely stupid.”

      Aaaaaand some people think stuff (books/movies/TV shows/music/etc) makes you LGBTQ+. *cracks up* Yes. Yes, that is precisely it. Because I watched Doctor Who, I decided to give up men and have a lizard women from the dawn of time all for my own. Yep.

      WHEN HE SAYS, “IT’S NOT MEN, IT’S JUST HIM”. Ianto you’re so sweet. (And I love his unexpected funniness, too. He can be very sarcastic every so often and I love it.)

      I’ve heard a bit about that headcanon, by which I mean I have heard OF it. But I don’t really know what it is. Tell me?

      You mean when he falls to the ground? xD

      Yeah, the one with all the ships? I want to know yours! *pokes*
      I don’t think so. Hey, have you seen this? SO FANTASTIC. http://www.youtube.com/watch/?v=oXOBHnWiinY
      It’s pretty good, thanks for asking! I haven’t learned anything other than “Rose’s Theme” so far but I’m quite pleased with how it’s turning out as I keep practicing. It’s my favorite companion theme. Now, I just have to learn “The Majestic Tale (Of A Madman In A Box)”!

      • But it’s a wonderful subject.

        I’m pretty surprised you haven’t heard of Weasley-style twincest before. It’s pretty popular, like James/Harry, Dudley/Harry, Draco/Lucius, Draco/Narcissa (less popular than D/L but still), Albus Severus/Harry, Scorpius/Draco, Ron/Ginny (sooo f*cked up, I know), Sirius/Regulus, Sirius/Lucius, Rodolphus/Rabastan, Lorcan/Lysander, and a freaking multitude of other ships. Potterheads are really weird sometimes.
        There is actual canon twincest? Explain?

        Yeah, that gets annoying sometimes. I don’t like fresh-from-Kovarian’s-brainwashing!River because she’s so young and naive and generally not likeable. I do agree with you about the fabulous hair, though. And mature!sometimes smarter than the Doctor!River is really just awesome to see.
        Other Jenny is cool, but she’s not for me. I like her as a character, not as a crush. Chipmunk? Really? I think she sounds fine. Perhaps a bit irritating, but ignorable enough.
        You must get a new one asap. Enlist Barrowman and Ian McKellen to help you create a working one. (ps ur the first person I’ve outed myself to online. be happy)

        God, I love 9 in general. Jack/Rose/9 is my OT3, but not in a shippy way (though that is pretty hot), in a friendship way. The relationship between 9 and Rose had so much possibility and so much to explore, and it’s a shame that 9 left after one season. I feel it could have definitely gone the way of romance. Rose/10 is okay, but 9/Rose though. I think Tennant ships Rose/10. Haven’t you noticed all the little looks he sent her way throughout the 2nd season?
        (oh god 10/technobabble how does that even work I don’t think I want to know)
        Jack would definitely plant a hot one on 11 the first chance he got. It just wouldn’t be like him to not try. And I really want to know if their relationship changed since 10 regenerated and 11 is a happy floppy-haired flailing puppy of joy. I think Jack would definitely enjoy getting the Doctor all flustered and embarrased through the power of innuendo and euphemisms and the Doctor would flail and blush awkwardly and Clara would be giggling because the Doctor is a socially-awkward idiot.
        Shh I’ve still got my hopes up for a surprise Barrowman appearance.
        And it would be wonderful, wouldn’t it? We’d be laughing all the way through the entire scene/scenes.

        I mean, he wrote beautifully under other writers (ex: Davies’ era [aka the Golden Age]) and came up with absolutely awesome things like in The Empty Child with the gas mask kids, or Reinette Poisson (I love that ep so much), or the awesomeness of Blink, or Silence In The Library/Forest of the Dead with the Vashta and River and the Library, the final scene in the End of Time … What I think I’m trying to say is that he works well under supervision, but he’s not very good as the head writer.
        And then they’ll never do it ever again and it’ll be all Moff’s fault and just generally a terrible thing.

        Like the situation where HP was banned cause Dumbles was gay?

        It’s wonderful when he’s all witty and clever and sardonic, right?

        It’s not released yet, or if it is I haven’t seen it. All I know is that the Moff and Davies put their heads together and came up with something that is going to hurt so bad.

        Yes, and the fanboy screaming omg

        Fine, I’ll write up the list. This is going to take a hell of a long time, though. I mean, I started shipping Chihiro/Haku (Miyazaki’s Spirited Away) when I was 5, and it’s an OTP right now. I hardly ever forget a ship (except in a case of Dramione to Drarry) so be prepared for a long list.
        Here you go> http://youtu.be/ss-zQeNu01k
        HOW does one even DO that? They should just hire the fans already.
        Ooh, I like The Majestic Tale. I’m taking a little break from Who right now, and trying to learn the Sherlock theme. It was a terrible decision (many sharps and flats and general fumbling of the keys). I think I might try Clara’s theme next, or this cover of the Hobbit’s theme. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pgat0QzWjMc

        PS: My brother is being an Ood for Halloween. Here’s a pic of his costume, if you wanted to see. (I crocheted his mask)

    • nevillegirl says:

      Indeed. It’s probably one of my favorite topics, so much so that one of last week’s book reviews featured it. xD (And many, many posts in the future will too, I’d expect…)

      Er. Yes. Potterheads are weird. I’ve heard of a few of those before and they still kind of weird me out. I guess… I guess while it’s something *I* would never do, I don’t care if anyone else does? I do think the parent/child pairings are a bit squicky though, it just seems abusive. *takes fandoms entirely too seriously*

      Yep, the plot of ASOIAF/Game of Thrones basically hinges on the idea that twins in the royal family (one of whom is married to the king) have kids together but everyone THINKS those are the king’s real kids and people find out and they go to war and yeah. That’s what starts off the series. It’s completely bizarre. It’s fabulous, though. You should read/watch it if you get the chance.

      I don’t mind the naivety with early River so much as I mind the… the way she’s just catchphrases then. She doesn’t have much of a personality, at least not the deep one she gets later. She’s just flirting and yeah.
      I LOVE mature!sometimes smarter than the Doctor!River. I could write a whole post about that – in fact, I think I might. I was going to write up my thoughts on the New Who companions anyway… but anyway, that’s why I adored her in SitL/FotD. She’s badass not because she flirts a lot or loves to shoot things – she’s badass because of her intelligence. (That’s one of the reasons I love Martha so much. She’s quietly badass.) She’s an equal to the Doctor. Aaaand she can stand up to him. She can stop him from doing something horrible. I feel like the older companions are better at that. They just dig in their heels and say NO.

      Butbutbut she has a SWORD and OOH PRETTY VICTORIAN DRESSES and yeah. (Why am I ending so many of my sentences with “and yeah”? xD)
      I dunno, maybe it’s her accent. I hated Amy’s accent…
      Ah yes, Ian McKellen. D’you think he would forge a new gaydar for me in the fires of Mount Doom?
      (*feels honored* *hugs you* Best of luck when you come out, if you haven’t yet!)

      *throws self at you and hugs tightly* Nine’s run was too short.
      I love the episodes with Jack/Rose/Nine. And when they’re with Micky, too. Again, they didn’t have nearly enough episodes.
      It’s hard to explain why I love Nine/Rose. Maybe it’s just their banter back and forth? Or actually, it was probably that dancing scene. That made me ship Jack/Nine too.
      Pfffft, “happy floppy-haired flailing puppy of joy” is the best description of Eleven I’ve ever heard. I’d love to see him with Jack, and Clara’s reaction.
      *crosses fingers* …my brother said he read something about Alex Kingston being in either the fiftieth or the Christmas/regeneration special? 😀 Eeeeeee yes! Also, I think Vastra, Jenny, and Strax would be in the fiftieth since I’m pretty sure they haven’t left Trenzalore yet.

      Aaaaah, all those are some of my favorite episodes. My issue with Moffat is that his individual episodes are FREAKING FANTASTIC but his big story arcs suck. His one-off episodes are amazing and sweet and make me cry.
      Moffat wrote The End of Time? O_o I thought Davies did.

      Indeed.

      *sniffle* I finished Children of Earth NOOOOOOO IANTO FROBISHER (ACTUALLY MAKE THAT ALL OF THEM) JACK’S GRANDSON NOOOOO

      OK.

      I read a comment on the video that said, “If you listen closely, you can hear the exact moment tumblr exploded.” 🙂

      Yay! Send them soon?

      AAAAH WHAT DID YOU SEND ME WHAT EVEN THAT WAS BRILLIANT AAAH AND NINE’S CHEEKY GRIN AT 3:00
      Thanks.
      I know, it’s brilliant, right? Of course, they’ll never use it, but that doesn’t stop me from wishing they would.
      I should find the music for “This Is Gallifrey”…
      AAAAH THAT IS EPIC THAT IS THE BEST COSTUME EVER OK YOUR BROTHER HAS THE BEST SISTER EVER

      • Wonderful, I shan’t lack good reading material in the future then.
        (and wow this comment post is as big as the Tardis is)

        Well, we are one of the largest and old(er) fandoms out there. It would make sense that we’d get a few odd ones of the lot. (but here’s a tip: never go into the Twilight fic archives. no. never. take extreme care to avoid these fandom fic archives as well: the Bible, Dora, Blue’s Clues, Sesame Street, and that one blue train thing I think is named Thomas.)
        Yeah, the few I’ve read just seem too creepy and a lot of them do involve much unhealthy manipulating of emotions. Don’t get me wrong, manipulating emotions can be perfectly normal (for Slytherins, at least) but it’s just the manner various characters go about it that just creeps me out.

        That sounds both weird and strangely interesting. I might try it, then. On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being 50 Shades (of hell) and 10 being enough to cause extreme fangirling like we were doing over Who’s 50th, how would you rate ASOIAF?

        So, she’s shallow, is that what you’re trying to say?
        YES RIVER IS BADASS AND AWESOME AND YEAH

        Meh.
        Amy’s Scottish accent just sounds a bit weird to me. I can’t describe it, really. It just sounds off.
        He’d do it gladly, I think.
        (thank you!)

        It was, wasn’t it? I really loved 9’s characterization and awesomeness and the sass… The pure sassiness of that wonderful idiot.
        Jack/Rose/Nine is so cute and wonderful and I refer to them as Team Tardis on occasion and they’re just the best group ever.
        Oh god the dancing scene ah yes that was like fanfiction personified. and yeah I ship Jack/Nine too so sue me
        OH YES THE FLIRTING AND EMBARRASSMENT AND FLAILING AND YES I NEED IT LIKE I NEED AIR
        So was Kingston in the 50th? I didn’t watch the 50th, I’m waiting for the theatre showing, but I logged onto Tumblr and the spoilers. They hit me hard. And now I’ve got some spoilers in my head and idk if they’re major ones or minor ones but TOM BAKER and RIVER’S RED HEELS and ROSE ISN’T REALLY ROSE? WHAT IS THIS

        His story arcs are confusing and often poorly executed, and the way he reveals the plot sometimes just isn’t clear. No. No me gusta.
        His one-offs are awesome though.
        He wrote the last scene. Y’know, the “I don’t want to go” that ripped everyone’s hearts out? THAT SCENE.

        IANTO MY BABY NONONONONONONO THE PAIN IT HAS BEEN FRESHLY RENEWED WHY

        Oh yeah, the ship list. *blushes* You can probably guess why I haven’t sent it yet. I’m a terrible procrastinating little idjit

        DON’T YOU LOVE IT??? IT’S WONDERFUL ISN’T IT
        They really just need to hire the fans already. That goes for Supernatural, too. The official Supernatural promos suck compared to the fan-made stuff. And the lighting on their photos is highly illogical…
        Yes you should. And then you can leard to play it and fangirl all over the piano and yeah
        OMG THANK YOU
        I was actually surprised that people recognized him on Halloween. He wore it twice, once to a trick-or-treating event thing and once on the actual 31st. But people did. An entire family made up of 3 teens, 1 mom, and a dog dressed as K-9, went running after him just for pictures. It was hilarious.

  10. algeax says:

    “Although Artemis makes a big deal about “staying a maiden forever”, she immediately follows this up with how she’s sworn off guys. Just guys.”

    Funnily enough, those two concepts aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive in the Greek mindset…

    http://johnsscionresources.blogspot.ie/2013/09/lamour-des-femmes.html

  11. EpicAleX says:

    I too am very glad Riordan decided to add a homosexual character. It is a big step, especially since such characters are EXTREMELY rare in trending fantasy novels. I think he could stand to add more characters who are not the usual white, straight, and able-bodied. Let me make myself clear though, I do not want the next book to be filled to the brim with cripples and LGBTQ+ characters. While it is important to have these elements, Percy Jackson is a series targeting young readers. It is fantasy. It is full of action scenes. As a 12 year old, I would rather read about stereotypical heroes in fantasy novels. Maybe not novels in general, but definwntly in fantasy novels. And I can say with relative confidence that this is the way most young readers feel. Rick Riordan is an author and he knows this. He is trying to earn money and appeal to kids.

    I probably sound like a homophobe. Oh god what did I just do? Okay, let me recap and them judge me however u want. Could Rick Riordan add additional LGBTQ+ characters? Hell yes. Should we find out that Jason is crushing on Leo, that Percy likes Grover? In my opinion, no.

    Let me recap again. It’s not that LGTBQ+ people aren’t good enough to be heroes or main characters. It’s that they are considered by a lot if straight people as different. Too different to relate too, and too different to read an entire book about.

    Final recap. IMO there is nothing wrong or unlikable about gay characters. This is not how everybody feels. Reply, judge, hate, whatever. I am a heterosexual, I am overweight, but not noticeably. I am 1/4 Greek, 1/4 Australian, and 1/2 Nigerian. I try to be open to other people’s views in hopes that they will return the gesture.

    • nevillegirl says:

      *sighs* I think you have some good points but… yeah, I don’t agree with everything. I mean, I’m not advocating for all books to have only LGBTQ+ characters. But as for all books having at least one? AW YEAH BRING IT ON. It’s like… all books should have characters of different races. We’re everywhere in real life, so I think we should be everywhere in books. (And as for “Well, LGBTQ+ people only make up 10% of the population so they should only be 10% of the characters!” – pffft. I don’t think the straights really need MORE representation, do you? They see themselves reflected in characters all the time. I have never read a book with all LGBTQ+ characters, but have read many that feature only straight, cis characters.)

      I definitely disagree with the stereotypical heroes in YA, especially YA fantasy. It’s not like they need to be eradicated, but we do need more who are different. I mean, I’m glad that you get to see lots of characters like yourself – I didn’t. Books that pretended people like me didn’t even exist weren’t that appealing to me. I would have LOVED HoH when I was twelve.

      So, correct me if I’m wrong, but you think Riordan should introduce new characters to be LGBTQ+, rather than using previously established characters? I don’t really have an opinion about that either way, just trying to make sure I understood you correctly.
      I don’t think it would be that strange if, say, Jason likes Leo. “What could that possibly add to the plot?” some might say.
      …what is the point of Percy (really, all the guys) crushing on Artemis? What does THAT do to further the plot? People don’t seem to have an issue with this if it’s straight romance. No one says unnecessary straight romance is “flaunting it”.

      I do agree with your thought that many straight people see LGBTQ+ individuals as extremely different. But don’t you think we should be DOING something about this? Dehumanizing LGBTQ+ is a thing. I have had plenty of other kids treat me very differently once they found out I was gay, like they didn’t know how to interact with me. They just don’t get it – I’m the same as any other girl, but I don’t fall in love with guys.
      Maybe reading books about LGBTQ+ characters would changed the minds of some straight people.
      Or the heterosexuals could, you know, just not do anything about the problem and instead talk about how difficult it is to relate to LGBTQ+ people since they’ve never really given it a try, seeing as how there aren’t many such characters in books (to give one example). This is circular thinking, people, and it’s silly.

      To be honest, I don’t care if someone doesn’t like gay characters, or bi characters, or whatever. The fewer homophobes in my fandom, the better.

      Thanks for reading and commenting!

  12. Annie says:

    I read this series with my grade six daughter and I think this is just another example of how the author has created relatable characters.

    I disagree with the idea that children are introduced to the concept of dating or even attraction on a sexual level via books or media however. My experience as a middle school teacher was that children usually learn about this through their parents, many of whom date and live with people other than the child’s other parent these days. It’s naive to think that our children are not watching us and taking mental notes. Books like Riordan’s merely reflect the things that kids already think about whether they verbalize them or not. Characters like Nico or relationships such as Percy’s and Annabeth’s simply allow children to see the range and complexity of love, attraction and committed coupling. It’s neither good nor bad but is a reminder that as parents, we should be more aware of what are children are reading.

    • nevillegirl says:

      *applauds* Exactly. Some people just can’t understand that KIDS ARE ALREADY EXPOSED TO THIS THROUGH THEIR PARENTS, ETC. I’m not sure how banning LGBTQ+ stuff is going to stop kids from thinking about romance, when their parents are likely married to/dating someone.
      Thanks for reading and commenting!

  13. Kerowyn6 says:

    This is a big step Rick Riordan just took. I’m impressed.
    I haven’t read the book yet. Guess how I found out! I saw a comment on someone’s profile saying something like: “I’m so glad RR made Nico gay! It gives him character!”. Well, I was reasonably shocked, not least because I had never viewed Riordan as the kind of author who, in the character development department, could even get past “she likes him but is afraid to tell him”, much less include a bi/gay character. Also, I will admit, I had some difficulty imagining Nico as gay. I am very strongly for gay rights, but it was kind of surprising. I think, however, that this will add a depth to Nico we’ve never seen.
    There’s one of them in every big series: the male side character that all the fangirls fall in love with. Nico from PJO, Gilan from Ranger’s Apprentice… This is the first time I’ve seen an author do something this huge and monumental with that character. This could be the push that gets gay rights legalised in a few more states. Pop culture is important.
    Because I like to know my opposition, I’ve googled some of the arguments against gay marriage. They’re almost all the same, just phrased differently: ‘gay marriage is wrong because it’s unnatural’. What on earth? Would it be around if it were innatural? We don’t do things that are bad for us in the immediate short-term. Human may smoke cigarettes and die from it forty years in the future, but if gay marriage were so harmful, then we wouldn’t do it. Humans don’t bend their wrists the wrong way until they break. That’s unnatural. Gay marriage is not.
    For anyone who’s interested, try the Last Herald-Mage trilogy by Mercedes Lackey. The main character, Vanyel Ashkevron, is gay in a world where that’s not easy. His story is really beautiful.
    If you are gay/lesbian/bisexual and are being bullied by straight people because of it, stand up for who you are. Know that you have at least one straight person behind you (me!) and there are millions more of us who believe that the arguments against gay marriage are complete pfooey. Everyone has a right to be who they want to be. NO exceptions.

    • the series that accompanies that one also has a couple of lesbians in it as well. The heralds of valdemar (sorry how bad i butchered the spelling) by Mercedes lackey.

    • nevillegirl says:

      @Kerowyn6: That’s one of the reasons I’m impressed too! I thought Riordan would figure “Oh, I can’t have queer characters when I don’t even have anything more than kissing between my straight characters!” (Not that queer characters = R-rated, but it’s surprising how many people seem to think that.)

      I am disappointed by some of the fangirls, though. I don’t have a problem with fangirling (I do it all the time! :D) but it irritates me when some of them say “Oh no, why is Nico gay?! Now I can’t crush on him!”
      Yes. Because POOR YOU, you can’t crush on him. Oh, how sad. *sarcasm* I kind of think LGBTQ+ representation is more important…

      Thanks for reading and commenting!

    • nevillegirl says:

      @cookiesandpie123: Thanks!

  14. nsam85 says:

    I’ve got to say, I’m really surprised and happy with all the positive comments about this issue. I’ve wandered through many sites about to read reactions of the revelation that Nico was gay. I thought I’d read so much hate and anger and disgust about this turn of events. However, it seems the vast majority is really accepting. Glad to see so many readers are supportive and more open minded about this issue, well done Rick Riorden, well done!

    • nevillegirl says:

      Me too! I’ve been surprised in general and also in terms of comments on this blog – yes, I’ve gotten a few nasty ones, but most of them have been nothing but positive. That’s always nice.
      I think the minority against it is just so vocal…
      Thanks for reading and commenting!

  15. The Olympia heights books talks about it some! Their by Amy Leigh Strickland.

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  19. Bobby Kolesar says:

    You mention mainstream books with homosexual characters, for ping adults there is always the mortal instruments series , with many lgbt characters

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  24. Ahhh, Nico… He’s probably my favorite characters. Before House of Hades, of course, I knew some people who decided he was their favorite character after HoH, which there is nothing wrong with, of course (I already said that. Sorry), but anyway.
    There’s also that Nico is a good realistic character. Not that, you know, most people can raise the dead and have skeleton friends and can walk through shadows and have a ginormous hellhound named Mrs. O’Leary. More so in the fact that he is good and bad, like most of us are. It’s kinda tricky to be “purely good” or “purely evil”. Well, okay, maybe it is possible, I just haven’t really seen it yet in a person. Most of us are good, but we are sneaky or whiny or liars or some other bad quality at times. In a way, it’s what makes us people. We are good and we are bad. (Man, this is getting interesting. I should do a post on this 🙂 )
    *reads through large multitude of comments*. Wow. All these Doctor Who related things. I really must watch more. I’m only on episode 3, so….
    Anyhow. Lovely post!

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  26. Kat Madi says:

    I know this is over a year later, but I really appreciate this review.
    “Funny how you’re apparently never old enough to know your sexuality unless it’s straight.”
    That’s the best quote I’ve ever heard, and so true. You’re awesome, thanks for respecting Uncle Rick.😃

    • nevillegirl says:

      Thank you! Ehehe, I still get a lot of comments on this post even now… I guess people must really like it!

      I know, right? No one questions the little girls who pretend that they have a kindergarten “boyfriend,” and vice versa. But if you’re not het or cis (or both), suddenly everyone questions you. It’s really frustrating. :/

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  28. Nashaly says:

    I actually like all the series and right now iam finishing number 5 the last olympian.😃

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